This conversation appears in Document’s Spring/Summer issue, available for pre-order now.

Francesco Risso calls me from the Marni headquarters in Milan, safely tucked away from his atelier, which he’s dubbed “the laboratory.” It’s a week before his headline-grabbing, patchwork-heavy F/W ’20 show. “It’s like a war right now,” he says of the atelier. As he enjoys this brief solace, and as we wait for his friend, musician Mykki Blanco, to join us, the conversation turns to Risso’s personal Instagram account (@asliceofbambi). To call it eccentric would be reductive, as that term has been fashion media’s go-to descriptor for the creative director since he took over the house of Marni in 2017 at the fresh age of 33. To be more specific, his account reads like a gritty mood board for a pet-salon-cum-speakeasy run by Luis Buñuel and Harmony Korine. There are images of surreally stretched limbs and facial features, an apparent obsession with painted animal fingernails, and cats. Lots of cats.

The friendship between Blanco and Risso blossomed last summer when Blanco attended Marni’s S/S ’20 show, performed afterward to Risso’s delight, and traveled with Risso to the Italian island of Pantelleria. It’s unmistakable how much these two differ from the catlike figures so common in the worlds of fashion and entertainment: aloof, impenetrable, perhaps only bribed with treats. An inimitable rapper and poet, Blanco came up in the relatively humble Brooklyn underground, while Risso spent his first four years of life on a boat with his parents. As a fashion figure, Blanco feels she’s a bit of a novice, and she’s maddened by the tug-of-war between business and integrity in that world; however, she embodies an evolution of style. Her forthcoming album, Lucky, and its title track have her in the uncharted territory of working with classical musicians, and she’s also bringing her brand of glamour on tour to queer pockets of the Middle East.

Furthermore, these two are acutely aware of what everyone is clamoring for right now: iconography; “the moment”; the visual to be shot and shared. Last year, Blanco indelibly appeared as a trans Joan of Arc in Madonna’s video for “Dark Ballet.” And at the close of his F/W ’20 show, Risso emerged in a helmet-like bunny mask, which is about as surrealist-salon as it gets. As we talk, the pair reveal that they’re hungry travelers, that they find joy in age despite only being in their thirties, and that they might just be embarking on a DIY collab.

Francesco wears clothing (worn
throughout) designer’s own. Photographed in Paris. Grooming: Alessandro Rebecchi at Artlist Paris. Photo Assistant: Mourad Boudrahem. Production: Parent. Retouching: INK.

Francesco Risso: I truly believe that cats are the animal of our age. It’s incredible how a cat can be successful online. It’s really impressive. Like any cat in any situation online gets the most credits and success of any other thing. I think there’s a certain independence. We feel this connection [with cats], but we don’t even know why. They’re kind of individualist in a way. I think we relate to it. It’s almost like a reflection of our soul. This is like a social study to me, but I don’t even have one.

R. Kurt Osenlund: Cats are the reflection of our souls?

Francesco: Yeah. I’m really talking mad right now, but you’re just letting me go.

Mykki Blanco: Hello! So sorry to keep you guys waiting. I was in the fucking doctor’s office taking fucking hormones, and they took forever. Anyways, hi.

Francesco: Hi. How are you?

Mykki: I’m good. How are you?

Kurt: We’ve been talking about cats.

Mykki: It’s really funny, because you don’t own a cat.

Francesco: You see how Mykki knows! We were talking about how people associate me with cats, but I don’t have a cat. I think we relate to cats without even knowing. Their independence, and their way of just being in and out when they want…

Mykki: Well, cats are so independent, so that makes complete sense because dogs are so needy, so vulnerable. Nobody wants to be needy or vulnerable—or annoying. A cat is a perfect friend, like, you can sit on your phone, in silence, and they sit still, and they’re not shaming you. I wish I could’ve called you before this call. I haven’t seen you since the summertime.

Francesco: I miss you! When are you getting here?

Mykki: I arrive in Milan on the 18th.

Francesco: Great. I’m so happy about it. I’m going to be your driver.

Kurt: So, how did you meet? What drew you to each other?

Mykki: Well, I’ll just say it: I was a fangirl. One day I got on Vogue.com, just drinking my latte, and—I’ll never forget—I was like, Oh, Marni’s changed. This is really fucking cool. So then I googled and found there was a designer change and found Francesco. And—I told him this—I thought he was hot. I’m tall, so I have a thing for tall people.

Francesco: Aw, Mykki that’s so nice. The feeling I have about your work is just…how can I say it? Lawrence [Steele, Francesco’s partner] pointed you out to me years ago with one of your first videos, and from there, my obsession started. Then, when you came to Milan, you performed at the party, and it was actually really funny the way we met each other. To me, it was almost like love at first sight. I think we were writing comments to each other on Instagram, and suddenly you were here in Milan.

Mykki: Yeah, it was like a food hall? Food court?

Francesco: It was a market, yeah.

Mykki: It was a market. Oh, my god, I’m so American. I’m like, ‘It was a food court?’ Like, ‘No it was a market.’ [Laughs]

Francesco: It was a really weird place, and it was the best party ever. After that, I thought, No parties for at least five years. My sister was there. She’s a veterinarian, and she travels around the world to save abused dogs, so it was a weird mix of fashion people and veterinarians. Suddenly, we-you were completely tearing down the food hall, and there was a beautiful mixture of reactions. It was so, so beautiful.

Mykki: Sometimes it can be very awkward to make friends as an adult. Even just casual friends, and I really didn’t know what to expect, but when I walked in, having never met you or Lawrence before, you were so warm and
engaging, even though there was a lot going on.

Francesco: To me, what was beautiful about that night was the honesty and spontaneity we all brought to the table. I could feel it the moment we suddenly became connected on the phone after our messages on Instagram. It was just so spontaneous, and I feel that night was all about that. That’s what I love about what we do, in terms of the way we work, but also in the way we meet people, and the way we even go on holiday together in the most bougie place, where we kind
of turned it upside down.

“That’s what I love about what we do, in terms of the way we work, but also in the way we meet people, and the way we even go on holiday together in the most bougie place, where we kind of turned it upside down.”

Kurt: Where did you go on holiday together?

Francesco: A few months after the show, we went on holiday in Pantelleria—the most romantic rock in the middle of the Mediterranean. It’s like two hours by boat from Africa. It’s where A Bigger Splash was directed. It was extremely bougie, and we were a little bit upset about that.

Mykki: We stayed in the same house where Tilda Swinton and Ralph Fiennes shot the movie.

Francesco: We were immersing ourselves in the movie every minute.

Mykki: Pantelleria was beautiful because it was like this Italian island infused with Arabic culture.

Francesco: Yeah, it’s quite a beautiful place. But they don’t have any beaches there. They just have rocks, rocks, and dangerous rocks.

Mykki: I don’t think I had ever taken a holiday where I was on a boat in the Mediterranean. The meals were delicious, and I almost drowned…

Francesco: Oh, my god, yes!

Kurt: I’d love to hear about how your travels inspire you.

Mykki: When I started performing, one of the only ways I was able to get myself out there without having the support of a major label was to tour extensively. I really benefited from what you would call this digital diaspora of people connecting on Instagram and Tumblr, and I was able to network with international queer communities. And that’s really still the base, even though a lot of people know more about me now than they did six years ago. Actually, after Milan Fashion Week, I’m talking with the people at this queer Arabic collective that’s going to help me organize shows in Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, and possibly Egypt. I’m not doing it through my agency. It’s all happening through this network of artists and people who throw radical queer events in the Middle East. That’s still definitely a part of who I am, and a lot of this tour is organized in art galleries and underground spaces. I’ve toured in Russia so many times as an openly queer person. A lot of people are like, ‘Well, how could you do that?’ And I would say you have to go there, you have to meet the people, because once you meet your people, they’ll take care of you and make sure you’re safe and make sure you perform in venues and in situations that will make sure you don’t end up on the front page of a newspaper, getting protested.

Dress by Marni. Earring by Meadham Kirchhoff x Lilien Czech. Bracelets by Lilien Czech. Oscar De La Renta bracelet from 4Element.co.uk.

Francesco: Sounds quite inspiring and controversial, but beautiful. I love it. It makes me think about your trip to Dharamsala.

Mykki: It was amazing. It’s one of those things where being a—well, I guess I’m 1986, are we still considered millennials if we’re 1986?

Francesco: I’m the oldest here! I’m ’82.

Mykki: I think you’re kind of late Generation X.

Francesco: Am I? Oh, shit. I’m not a fucking millennial? Okay, I’m actually happy about it.

Mykki: You’re at the beginning. But I was going to say, travel and being able to jet-set all around the world—to me, at this phase in my life, that’s my luxury. I’m so grateful I’m able to do it because so many people can’t. When you see so many different societies and so many different ways of living, you think, Okay, I can really do this adult thing on my own terms.

Kurt: What do you think is the most radical thing that someone can do with fashion and style, and whatever that thing is, why do you think it’s important now as we move forward culturally? And also, who is doing that for you right now?

Francesco: I think the most radical thing one could do in fashion is to be true to yourself. And honest with your designs. I think it’s actually the biggest fight you have every day of your life when you work in a company like Marni. It’s going toward being a big player in the fashion system, and you have to try every day and stand up for that honesty of the mind, honesty of the creative process, honesty of the ideas, the integrity. In every corner, there’s someone who tries to influence you to fuck that up. It can be quite intense. But [you have to have] a strong connection with the people you work with and the people you express your ideas to. It’s hard because of how demanding the world is, and the market, and the position, you know? That’s why it’s radical.

Mykki: From an outsider’s perspective, when you start to understand the business of fashion, it’s so fucking psychotic. The kind of personality that you have to have to be able to balance being an authentic creative—and being a creative that is not just making a decision because it’s currently in vogue… Being a visionary takes so much resolve and perseverance, and I’m sorry, I don’t think it’s noble at all—I think it’s fucking exhausting. I’m always like, ‘Girl, you really have to have some fucking grit.’ And you really have to have integrity.

Francesco: I think you’re right. But we’re also very lucky. The job that we do is one of the most beautiful jobs. And I think that integrity and honesty is what keeps it real and grounded. I also think that your industry—it’s psychotic, honey. I wouldn’t know where to start there. But the talent that you see, it’s so beautiful. I think that’s radical, to remain attached.

Kurt: Do you have a release date yet for Lucky, Mykki?

Mykki: There’s no release date. It’ll be 2020, but it’s going to be such a game changer for me, so it can take as long as it wants. Well, not too long. It can take as long as it needs. In January, I thought my album deal was going to be done, and some more powerful people got involved, and when powerful people get involved, things will take longer, but it’ll be worth it.

“Travel and being able to jet-set all around the world at this phase in my life, that’s my luxury. I’m so grateful I’m able to do it because so many people can’t.”

Kurt: You’re both at certain career apexes of sorts, but can you think of a time recently when you were newly challenged in a creative process where everything felt new?

Francesco: Well, when we’re building up a sort of creative mountain, the most emotional side of that comes from the people that I work with. It takes quite a long time to feel it, but there are moments where you’re building up a show, with all the people who are working for an idea, and there is joy, which to me represents the success of the thought that we’re having. I’m quite attracted by that interaction, that feeling. It’s almost like a mutual emotion that happens while creating the idea, and I live for that joy.

Kurt: What’s the wildest or riskiest thing you’ve done in your career?

Mykki: I don’t think I’ve done the wildest and riskiest thing yet.

Francesco: That isn’t an easy question to confront. I come from an education of my father where every day of our lives was a fucking risk. So lately I’ve been realizing that it’s in the blood, and I’m trying to slow down a bit. I’m not sure that I’m capable of taking it easy, so I’m actually working a lot on that. I mean, I was born on a boat on the 30th of December. My father used to take me to sea with basically no clothes on. It was a great time, but I didn’t necessarily have a ‘father figure.’ He was very eccentric. So, all of our lives have been molded by his way of molding. I’ve been thinking lately about that a lot, and I guess I’ve learned how to live life at a high speed. It’s probably why I’m sick with the flu and I’m trying to slow down a bit. There’s beauty in slowing down and taking it easy. I’m curious about a normal pace of things.

Kurt: Francesco, how do you want people to feel in their bodies when they wear your clothes, and Mykki how do you want to feel in your body when you’re wearing somebody’s clothes?

Francesco: I don’t have time to think about bodies. I think about the mind and the senses and the freedom that you can get wearing certain things. I don’t necessarily think about bodies. It’s just not my priority.

Mykki: For me, I always hope people feel excited, and I want there to be an element of magnetism. Something definitely jumps inside my body when I’m onstage. Over the years, I’ve just become a really visceral performer. There are certain cues that I get from people. I always want people to be excited, and it’s that basic thing of wanting to be liked, but also knowing when to pull back. I think being ‘too much’ is also really unattractive. But, yeah, I want to be liked. I think that’s like why I’m a performer. I want to be liked. We all do.

Francesco: We like you! We like you!

Mykki wears earring and necklace by Joanna Burke. Givenchy necklace from 4Element.co.uk. Hair: Ali Pirzadeh at CLM for AP Wigs. Make-up: Mona Leanne at The Wall Group using Illamasqua. Stylist Assistant: Hannah Hetherington. Photo Assistants: Barney Couch and Alysandra De Gonville Morrison. Production: Parent.

Mykki: But how do I feel? Not to sound so pretentious, but I have a very sensual relationship with clothing. I want to feel sexy. Right now, I’m going through a very unsexy period. I’m transitioning right now, and I’m really happy I’m doing it in my thirties instead of my twenties. I feel way more emotionally and spiritually grounded [now]. But one of the things that happen when you transition is that all of your muscle, through the estrogen, turns to fat. I didn’t have a lot of muscle to begin with, and I wish I had done more research because I’m really curvy right now in a way that’s really stressing me out. I know that’s part of it. I know the weight will even out, and I’m exercising, but right now I’m starting to have a very different relationship with how I feel in clothing. When you’re super-skinny, you just throw on anything—you’re looking good and life’s easy. Now I’m experiencing a certain curviness and having to think about clothes in a different way, changing how I feel.

Kurt: Both of you seem to keep a certain playfulness alive in your work and your lives. Why is that important, how do you do it, and what do you find funny and playful right now?

Mykki: Right now, what I find playful is age. When I was younger, I used to be so ageist. Oh, my god, I was horrible. I was a little monster. But now I’m 33, and I’m so much more secure than I used to be. Even though I have moments of anxiety, I have far fewer moments of insecurity now than I did my entire life. That feeling of groundedness enables me to feel playful. I think getting older is so cool. I think age is the most playful, awesome thing. As you age, different doors open up to you. I also realized that most people that I admire became successful around this time, give or take five or six years. So, it’s also exciting because a lot of people reach peaks in their careers that didn’t happen when they were 25, and the people that did have it happen when they were 25 were kind of flukes. Good for them, but also great for me.

Francesco: Friends keep that playfulness alive in my life. I love how diving into friendships and connections are almost always playful, and I’m a true fan of that. One of my mantras is about man being most nearly himself when he experiences the fierceness of a child at play. I have that with my friends.