Pony Rivers and Holli Smith are not only collaborators, but have also been a couple for nearly six years. For this portfolio, Smith crafted a host of characters alongside editor Jay Massacret for Rivers to embody during his capital-F Fashion debut. While this is Rivers’s first time in Document, it isn’t Smith’s, who created a hair story for the magazine’s launch issue in 2012. The couple are joined by Document beauty director Yadim to discuss romance, safety, and the sexy potential of queer visual storytelling.

Left: Pony wears shirt by Tod’s. Pants by Givenchy. Shoes by Underground. Glasses by Jacques Marie Mage. Right: Top, trousers, and boots by Bally.

Yadim: I want to start off by asking how you two met. How was the connection made?

Pony Rivers: How we met initially was Holli hired me for a fun night.

Yadim: Okay, hot.

Holli Smith: We realized that we both had some San Francisco history. After meeting each other, we [separately] went to this queer party once a month in Williamsburg called PAT. We saw each other, realized that we were talking to some of the same people, and it made it more safe and vetted and not so anonymous. We started getting to know each other a little bit more.

Yadim: When did you realize that there was something more than just an initial spark there, something more substantial and special?

Pony: There was a level of trust in the beginning because of how Holli behaved. It just seemed natural with her, and that sparked something in me. I was like, ‘Who is this person?’

Left: Jacket by Ferragamo. Right: Tank and necklace talent’s own.

Holli: It was nice because we were both loners in our own little world with each other. It was hard to crack the shell, but once we began revealing certain things, it started becoming clear that this was someone who I could trust and feel safe with. From there, it became this deeper-level thing that had so much more care and thoughtfulness than most situations I think both of us had ever really been in.

Yadim: Pony, you mentioned safety. How important is that safety in any space? Not just in relationships and intimacy but in friendships, and certainly in beauty spaces, like going to a barbershop or a salon. Where does safety come into that dynamic for you?

Pony: It’s been a long road. Safety for trans-presenting people has always been an issue, and it’s an issue today, but I think it’s something that we’ve made progress in from 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Only now do I feel safe going into a barbershop or a salon, just in the aspect of there being more language around people in their identities and what norms are accepted. Holli brought me into her world on this shoot, and everyone on set and how they conducted themselves made me feel very safe, of course.

Yadim: So beautiful. How did the idea come about to do this story on Pony?

Holli: I don’t really feel like there’s a lot of trans-masc representation. I thought it would be fun to transform Pony, and to turn it into a beauty-type experiment. It was really a natural thing for me.

Trouser’s stylist’s own.

Yadim: Pony, you mentioned visibility. What is the importance of visibility, seeing ourselves reflected in the culture or, in this case, a magazine or in any kind of media, for you as a trans man?

Pony: It’s how we can lift each other up. Being a small kid from Yorkville, Georgia, it was the stories of others that helped me be like, ‘There’s something else that I’m missing. There’s something more in this world than what I’m surrounded by.’ I feel like I have an obligation to share my story.

Holli: Obligation is totally right. Anything that I can do to show the love and safety and thoughtfulness behind something that’s so judged in conservative, negative spaces is exciting and, really, my mission, my obligation.

Yadim: Yes, playing not just on identity, but on what someone else’s visual understanding of who we are is or can be. What was that like for you Pony, to put all your trust into Holli and into the entire team to surrender and say, ‘Okay, do with me as you see fit?’

Pony: I was curious about what it was going to be like for me not to have facial hair. It was an opportunity to really look at myself, and I realized that facial hair is not what defines me. I define myself, and I am trans regardless.

Holli: Exactly.

Left: Shirt and jacket by Saint Laurent by Anthony Vaccarello. Tie stylist’s own. Right: Shirt, jacket, and trousers by Saint Laurent by Anthony Vaccarello. Shoes by Underground. Tie stylist’s own.

Pony: That was very empowering. I really relished the opportunity to be in these different characters, and I was excited to see who else I could become, in a way. Identity is very fluid sometimes, so I was excited about that.

Holli: We started talking about all the different types of characters I already feel like he embodies, and then going off and doing a little more fashion, maybe suits and tailoring, things that he doesn’t really get to play with. Then we thought about how we can make this a really juicy experience in terms of a beauty focus. We were like, ‘Oh, should we dye your hair black?’ ‘Oh, can we shave your facial hair?’ ‘Okay, we can do that. Yay!’ ‘Okay, forget turning it black. Let’s bleach it.’ Doing that right in the middle of the shoot was intense because you have one day, but of course we’re used to being able to go from one place to another in five seconds.

Yadim: What role does hair play in identity and gender expression?

Holli: There was a time where hair really signified queerdom. For me, especially growing up in San Francisco, it was showing just from your exterior that you were different from a cis-type person. Or that you wanted to be acknowledged that you have queerness. For a lot of women getting short haircuts for the first time back in the day, they didn’t want to be in a place where they were just getting attention from a male gaze, they wanted to flag to other queer people that they were one of them, and find friends or find other people they’re attracted to. I think now, because social media is basically our alter egos, those are sometimes the first personalities that we have [access to] before who we really are. Which is a weird survival skill of today. We’re in a flux right now. We’re figuring it out. That’s what’s exciting to me, finding more ways to get intimate with beauty, to reach a different place that’s deeper.

Left: Vest, trousers, and bracelets stylist’s own. Right: Top by Eckhaus Latta. Jacket by Lemaire.

Pony: One of the things that made this shoot so special and different is that it was the first time I didn’t have to translate who I was to a hairstylist. On the team, I was surrounded by people who get it, who get me. That’s not how it has been in my past. When I was a pre-trans baby and didn’t know where I fit in, hair was a way for me to signify that I was different. And I think now being a trans man, hair is important, but there are also other things that we can rely on to define ourselves.

Yadim: What do you each admire most about each other with the way you express yourselves?

Pony: You can tell a lot from a person by the way they treat others, and I feel that Holli shows me that all the time, from the people we meet in the elevator to how she picks up random trash when we’re walking our dogs. I’m like, ‘Girl, what are you doing?’

Yadim: It’s the Cali in her.

Pony: Yeah. That’s one of the reasons. But Holli is just so… She’s just so sexy and strong, and she’s just super DL. To me, that’s the total package.

Holli: Pony sees me in ways that I feel like… He said, ‘People have been sleeping on you. You are this special person,’ and he reminds me to look at myself when I spend so much time looking at others. He brings me back to this centered space. We’re beaming vibes off each other. It’s almost six years, and we’re just super into each other.

Sweater by
Bally.